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| Moderated by: Joe Kelley |
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| bear = Joe = Sergey | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 05:01 pm |
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1st Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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If there is no trust can there be any cooperation and without cooperation can anything be produced in which two or more people share the measure of value in the things produced?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 05:35 pm |
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2nd Post |
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bear Guest
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Joe, I have already stuck my neck out and answered Sergey in the other thread. Sergey has already told me he does not wish to discuss the Bible. He wants to talk to you about his understanding of mathematics as opposed to my archaic, unevolved, obsolete, unrealistic, thick-headed-wall premise that God will judge us after death in accordance with the Bible and according to the Bible. ...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 06:00 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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Posts out of there can be transferred here if need be or deleted - I don't mind. It was my bad to post anything in there - didn't see the thread for between Joe and me. Now I'm off to sleep before I FACEPALM myself to death.  Last edited on Thu Apr 11th, 2013 06:02 pm by |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 06:07 pm |
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4th Post |
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bear Guest
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I am laughing. I hope it is not at your expense. But this whole thing when I read my repetition of words and then see the FacePalm picture strikes me as funny. Ask Joe, I get huffy every now and then  I wish I knew how to put a picture in my post, Sergey? Also, wondering what time it is there when you are going to bed. Time was 5pm +/- here in US Central Daylight Savings Time.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 09:15 pm |
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5th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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bear, Your value to me is as immeasurable as the value I continuously see in Sergey, because he insists upon knowing the truth. If you know it, then the problem is communication: yes or no? Maybe?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11th, 2013 09:58 pm |
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6th Post |
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bear Guest
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Joe, it seems to me that your description of Sergey:because he insists upon knowing the truth is not the same Sergey I have met. I have met a Sergey who like me believes he knows the truth concerning spiritual things. He, like me, has no interest in pursuing one another's truth in the spiritual realm. I am not budging off of the Bible when it comes to my perception of truth. I think I remember telling you that if you had not been interested in allowing me to share my faith with you. Yes, I found it http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2599788 : You know and understand things that I want to know about, and I have an interest in you knowing Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. If that door had not been left open it would have hit me on my way out. You have been willing to invest time; I have been willing to invest time. Most people are uninterested or unwilling to spend the time? I am always afraid my ignorance will not be worth your time. I do not have much power, so your patience in waiting to have equitable communication for 20 years may not build Rome. It seems to me that there is not a communication problem. But rather a lack of desire to communicate. However, I do seem to tend to interpret some of the words he says to me incorrectly. That may be the language barrier, but I think you know that I take words personally. ...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 03:36 am |
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7th Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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bear,Yes, we did drop the subject and then you showed up talking about it, and if you were not referring to me when talking about Joe beating his head against THE wall, then what were you talking about? Does it really matter? I wasn't talking to you then. Ah, what the heck... Here we have a certain saying that refers to a seemingly completely pointless task, like beating one's head against the wall. It goes as following: "Argue with a priest". No priest can ever be outargued on the subject of his religion, nor will that priest ever admit that he was, always having the last word in any such arguing. So I was referring to that - doing something that I find pointless. Though I must admit - it can be a funny show from a third person perspective. Anyway - enough about that, seriously now. I wish I knew how to put a picture in my post, Sergey? Like this: [.img]link here[./img] (without dots and with direct weblink to the image) Also, wondering what time it is there when you are going to bed. Time was 5pm +/- here in US Central Daylight Savings Time. It's GMT+3 here, shouldn't be hard to calculate. Use worldtimezone.com if lazy. As for relative time - It's usually 1-3 a.m. when I go to sleep. Joe, bear, because he insists upon knowing the truth I have met a Sergey who like me believes he knows the truth concerning spiritual things. He, like me, has no interest in pursuing one another's truth in the spiritual realm.  Last edited on Fri Apr 12th, 2013 03:42 am by |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 09:37 am |
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8th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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I have these conversations running in my head, all the time, where I get in someone else's shoes, and play the part of the imaginary chess player. I learned some of this technique from playing Chess with Mike through written paper letters before the age of e-mail. Sergey has experience with what he considers to be Religion. bear has experience with what she considers to be Religion. When one person assumes to know what the other person is experiencing, there is room for error. How much room? Is this a big room or a small room that no one needs to be in, because it is pointless to be in this room?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 12:07 pm |
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9th Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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Now I feel obligated to explain facepalms. 1st was the reaction I had on over-assuming done by bear, and even though I expressly answered what I meant and what I didn't mean - this same over-assuming about the same words said by me and explained persisted. What does that make me feel? Ignored? Or maybe bear thinks I'm lying to her when I make short answers? I find that facepalm picture is a good response to that kind of unwillingness to listen to my explanations (especially considering that these explanations were given per request, not just my own willy-nilly involvement). It's not like I'm playing a snob here. 2nd was as reaction to quotes made by both of you. I having a hard time finding instances of me claiming to know THE TRUTH or my interest in pursuing 'spiritual realm' and whatever it is in it. I find that me forming that kind of a response in semi-laughable style eases the tension, though shouldn't be taken lightly. Same with my "demand" in history thread. I specifically constructed the sentence in a funny fashion to downplay importance of the suggestion. Last edited on Fri Apr 12th, 2013 12:11 pm by |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 03:15 pm |
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10th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Laughing is good for the soul. ?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 03:39 pm |
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11th Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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Healthy laughter doesn't hurt. There are hurtful kinds of laughter though. Maniacal, schizophrenical, immoral and so on... Last edited on Fri Apr 12th, 2013 03:40 pm by |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 04:57 pm |
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12th Post |
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bear Guest
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I am busy today and am making this reply to Joe and Sergy: I cannot understand you Sergey. These words to Joe: Joe, Sergey, Joe and I were discussing something and then you pop in and say those words. Which words? The words to the effect: Joe, if you get tired of beating your head against the wall...and if you want to talk about what I KNOW which is different than what bear knows because bear has not yet evolved. I KNOW that people pay for the wrongs immediately. bear is stuck in an archaic frame of reference. She has not evolved. But, Joe, I have evolved and I KNOW things...so Joe, quit beating your head against the wall, if you are interested I have a pillow you can lay your head on while I tell you what I KNOW. Now, those are not the exact words, but Sergey that is how those words sound to me. And then you have the nerve to tell me, no, that is not what I meant at all in so many words Then you say this: Does it really matter? I wasn't talking to you then. Ah, what the heck... Here we have a certain saying that refers to a seemingly completely pointless task, like beating one's head against the wall. It goes as following: "Argue with a priest". No priest can ever be outargued on the subject of his religion, nor will that priest ever admit that he was, always having the last word in any such arguing. So I was referring to that - doing something that I find pointless. Though I must admit - it can be a funny show from a third person perspective. Anyway - enough about that, seriously now. Talking to me is like arguing with a priest?...it is a pointless effort?...Joe, if you get tired of pursuing a pointless effort, that of talking with bear about certain things, then talk to me. I have evolved. I have the TRUTH speaking to me is not beating your head against the wall. And then you say I having a hard time finding instances of me claiming to know THE TRUTH Well, here: you have evolved. Let me get the words that you KNOW: >>> Number 3) Who says that someone who doesn't accept YOUR truth has not yet "evolved" to YOUR state of being? So...you APPARENTLY have PERSONAL TRUTH? Fine and that PERSONAL TRUTH is what? Is it this thing that YOU KNOW: But I know that every person's wrong choice is punished the very moment of committing it. And it's not some arcane force being applied by some supernatural being. I know the ropes of said mathematics... You say I KNOW 2 times in 3 sentences and the sentence in the middle is also something that you know “And it’s not some arcane force being applied by some supernatural being.” You KNOW? And then according to you TRUTH is SINGULAR? So, only what YOU KNOW is TRUTH because you are going to prove it by mathematics. OK Sergegy. And then you say this: 1st was the reaction I had on over-assuming done by bear, and even though I expressly answered what I meant and what I didn't mean - this same over-assuming about the same words said by me and explained persisted. What does that make me feel? Ignored? Or maybe bear thinks I'm lying to her when I make short answers? So now I get to read “bear OVER ASSUMES. My words do not mean what bear THINKS they mean because I EXPRESSLY ANSWERED WHAT I MEANT AND WHAT I DIDN”T MEAN….and that bear PERSISTS IN OVER ASSUMING no matter how much I explain that she is not archaic, she is not a wall, and she is not a pointless effort…that of arguing to a priest who cannot be out argued and who is never wrong… No, Sergegy, I don’t think you are lying. I think you are being duplicitous. Or perhaps bear cannot read English and Joe knows that bear has a hard time reading English and also says false things about people. Now, you could be like Joe and tell me if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. Or you could say you are on a soapbox talking to anyone but me with your words. So of course you are not speaking about my belief here: As is with any development, certain early stage axioms become obsolete and no longer accommodate reality. Seeing the vast amount of data you have produced on the subject of political economy I imagine you think that too. So the problem occurs when people professing those axiom are unable to evolve past them. And then one also has to take into account the words in the “Not to clutter” PM in which I was also treated to the fact that it was quite possible that I have not had the opportunity to evolve. So Sergey, you KNOW that you HAVE evolved and that is how you KNOW the PERSONAL TRUTHS that you have. But it is quite possible that I have not had the opportunity. So, even though you mean nothing by your words, they still place you as more evolved than me. I guess I am not a bear, but still part monkey, but you Sergey, you, are more human than me. Now, tell me that is not what you mean so that my unevolved monkey mind can ignore your words, because actually they are so evolved that only an evolved person can understand them, so why wouldn't a mere monkey ignore them? And because I can understand some of Sergey's words, I can now do this, thanks to Sergey, so I have evolved in my ability to post pictures: but why is my monkey picture so small? 
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 07:48 pm |
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13th Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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-censored- Last edited on Fri Apr 12th, 2013 09:51 pm by |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 09:21 pm |
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14th Post |
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bear Guest
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Sergey, Maybe since language doesn't work, a picture will. I have not been trying to play games, be a martyr, call you a Troll. I am writing honestly what I hear when I read your words. And personally, your very last words to me make me feel like cancelling my ID and never talking to anyone again. Those last words unlike the others I thought I heard from you are like a dagger in my heart. The other words only hit me intellectually. I am pretty sure I get the meaning of your last sentence. I have not been trying to hurt your feelings. I have been trying to explain to you what I hear from you. Just like when you said So...you APPARENTLY have PERSONAL TRUTH? Fine and that PERSONAL TRUTH is what? I had no idea you were rephrasing my words back to me. And if you want the truth about how I feel about that, it makes me feel mocked that you would rephrase my words back to me as a literary trick. Now, since it was a literary trick, how was I supposed to interpret it besides feeling mocked? How did you want me to hear those words? You wanted me to hear "I just learned that I apparently have personal truth" to mean "I have no idea what you're talking about". That is not what I heard. I heard you saying you had just learned you had personal truth. The word "just" did not mean "just now" to me. I read it as "just kinda." Sergey, I am a nice, honest, above board person. What you see is what you get. No games. No tricks. I try to be honest. I think I make Joe mad sometimes I think because I cannot understand certain things. But I want to understand. I want to understand your words to me. If the problem is between my 2 ears, we know where the problem lies. But I can't help it if I don't know what you are saying to me. I am sincerely sorry. Please forgive me. ...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12th, 2013 10:03 pm |
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15th Post |
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Jee-Host[gm] Guest
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I trust that you are sorry, even if for the wrong reason. Apologies accepted. But then again - I'm not doing any more of religion-related discussions with you. It was wrong of me to ever touch it in the first place. I know what I know. And with current presentation you won't be able to prove me wrong on that. Also - you're overreacting. I suggest you put your emotional effort, which seems to be a plenty, towards more productive goals than arguing with me about your beliefs. Of all doubts there are out there, blind belief in anything will the very last I'll make. I don't doubt your sincerity, I'm just enraged on how this plays out. It's not so much as your fault than your problem. And mine as well. Now let's just move on. I already said enough. And please don't comment on my references to belief, faith, religion and anything related, even if you have a book-worth of things to say, because I'm not going to respond to that. Last edited on Fri Apr 12th, 2013 10:03 pm by |
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13th, 2013 03:27 pm |
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16th Post |
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bear Guest
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Sergey, Thank you for accepting my apology. I have no interest in proving you wrong. I enjoy discussion and learning. I have an interest in being a kind human being. If I could have foreseen the kind of trouble I was causing, I would have refrained. ...
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| Power Independence > Fight Night > Debate > bear = Joe = Sergey | Top |
