| ||||
| ||||
| Moderated by: Joe Kelley | Page: 1 2   |
|
|||||||||||||
| To Howard | Rate Topic |
| Author | Post |
|---|
| Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 09:44 am |
|
1st Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, Ectropy (extropy) vs Entropy Intuition vs Reason Order vs Chaos Does the brain itself create math and employ math to create even higher forms of math including a math (or way of perceiving) by connecting to other brains (including other people and calculators, computers, and non-living processors of data)? Is a simple circuit in the brain powered by a small current expanded to answer a question asked? Inanity (boom) vs (reason) bust Is the process of gaining brain power a boom and bust cycle for individuals or for individual species, or for all “intelligent” life?
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 10:25 am |
|
2nd Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
 Pre-order http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beast-Radical-Re-Vision-Capitalism/dp/1591027543/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_2 Exceptional work: http://www.amazon.com/Howard-Bloom/e/B000AP9LFA/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1 Borrowing another person's brain allows the borrower to skip a whole lot of trial and error in the process of resolving those nasty contradictions, a process that ends - presumably.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 09:49 am |
|
3rd Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
If truth at any price, including the price of your life is measurably valid then what is the role of liars in the social structure? Why is the supply of liars, with their supplies of lies, so overwhelming? Why are half truths being propped up as the truth, especially when the missing half costs so many lives?
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 12:31 pm |
|
4th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, As to my initial experience with the new book I see a need to restate a specific observation and this is necessary because a vague observation leaves way to much room for misunderstanding. I have a very hard time listening to anyone who publishes data where the message can be interpreted as an apology for torture and mass murder, war, aggressive wars for profit, crime, etc. The apology includes messages that cover-up the crimes perpetrated against innocent victims by the people who run The Federal Reserve scam. Your message on that subject is uncharacteristically absent supporting data. I got past that false advertisement campaign, for all I know you need to publish the false stuff so as to avoid being blacklisted. As to the affect the book already has on me I have asked questions and have now a working theory on the answer to the questions inspired by your book (and I have yet to read past the part where you tell the story of your corporate music experiences). My question restated (or my question asked in other words): What is the function of crime in the evolutionary process? Hypothesis: Victimization is a process of reproduction because new beings victimize their parents. The problem with that last sentence is a word problem; since the word “victimization” is inaccurate, insufficient, or easily misunderstood in context. New beings (complex beings) require costs spent by the beings that create new beings, for no certain return on those costs expended. Why, for example, would any being expend all the costs necessary to reproduce in a situation where scarcity is severe or where resources that are necessary for survival are only sufficient for a few beings, not sufficient for more beings? I hope that question and hypothesis conveys meaning sufficient to inspire refutation or agreement; rather than ignorance.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 10:19 am |
|
5th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, Ectropy is not very well communicated amid the current data flow generally, and I think the reason for this omission has to do with the over-powerful factor of legal crime. If legal crime (a term that is also not very well communicated amid the current data flow) is a measure of entropy or digestion, contraction, or the opposite direction from ectropy, then that fact would point to the genetic viability of people born without the parts of the brain where morality is calculated, inspired, or whatever words best describe the process. If that is true, then how can that genetic mutation manage to survive over time in actual human history? Are immoral people (criminals) as able to reproduce as moral people? Who cares for the children? Children can’t survive without someone caring for them?
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 01:31 pm |
|
6th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, If organic (natural rather than designed by and executed by a person or “man-made”) contraction is a natural result of scarce power, and organic expansion is a natural search for more power, as I presume it to be, then what happens when an organism, such as man, harnesses power beyond a level of scarcity for a long, long time, compared to, for example, the time it takes a bee colony to run out of power? What is the hypothetical longest expansion period possible for human beings if human beings learn how to avoid wasting power on torturing and killing each other?
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 11:22 am |
|
7th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, I will write up another sound byte sized version of Political/Economy where the illustration shows how the U.S.A Nation State could boom again and boom faster than China now. Before doing so I have a few things to say concerning my illustration; look at it as if it is a new thing, right under your nose, and ask questions from that ignorant viewpoint. My part will be to take the challenge of seeing this with your eyes. I see the need to preface this illustration because our quick exchange on the Media Lab Skype session had our two perspectives meeting with contention on a few things and my impression is that you ignore the contention without due diligence in communicating why you ignore the contention. One such contention has to do with electrolysis of water into oxygen and hydrogen as a means of storing power from excess electricity. You had said that water is scarce and too much power is required in the process of electrolysis. Have you looked close enough into that to see the whole truth of it, to see all the possibilities, and to resolve any errors in your measure of it? Putting that aside I’m going to present the illustration that intends to show how the U.S.A. Nation State could boom again. I really think you should look at this closely, as if it were plopped down under your nose from some alien source, and this is the stuff that tends to get me banned from other forums. The illustration concerns the answer to the following question: What is ideal currency? My answer offers 2 new legal products in competition with any other legal currency currently flowing through the Global human social structure or network.
That is product one. The idea behind charging no interest is the same idea as giving away the razor so as to sell razor blades.
Product 2 is the end of the sound byte illustration. One percent of a large enough market share could be accurately measured and illustrated to be sufficient to cover costs of running the new legal currency business. Total expenses for this new legal currency business could be accurately measured to be sufficiently less than total possible income from one percent of the power products loans; if not the competitive currency business would be a net loss and the charge or price of each product could be raised to cover costs. That is it and if your response to that illustration is communicated accurately to me, support for it, questions about it, refutation of it, then I will learn from you since I’ve been spreading this idea around to many places and I have yet to get any feedback where the feedback manages to communicate accurately back to me. I get a whole lot of noise, a whole lot of political “shoot the messenger”, “Straw-Man arguments”, “Transference”, and “Projection” routines instead of accurate feedback. I’ve illustrated the illustration with many words, many different variations including dialogue routines between potential customers and Bank salesmen. I’ve fielded many possible contentions, contentions I’ve produced myself, in absence of any contentions offered by anyone else. I sent the following to a teacher I hired to teach me good English. The teacher ended up canceling my lessons and returning the remainder of my money when I offered to the teacher my perspective on her criticisms concerning my English project. She criticized the subject matter, not the composition of the subject matter. Here is a cut and paste: End the Dooms Day Parade for Good
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 10:54 am |
|
8th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, A path of least resistance has to lead somewhere. If it leads to life it will be a true path, if it leads to death it will be a false path. What about the path of greatest resistance?
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 09:19 am |
|
9th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
One area of contention I have concerning the book and my own way of perceiving reality, measurable reality, is money. This concern is not cooked up from some nebulous conspiracy theory, it measures, rather, a very large gap between the text in the book and text written elsewhere where the viewpoints appear to be in direct opposition, like two things supposedly occupying the same place at the same time. What, for example, is the accurate viewpoint on fractional reserve banking? If someone was in command of an accurate viewpoint on fractional reserve banking how could someone accurately transfer that viewpoint intact?
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 10:30 pm |
|
10th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
When you are down, fight it, because when you are up again you will be up that much higher.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 10:43 pm |
|
11th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Things not posted on the busy Media lab chat: Are you speaking to the choir, is there a way to speak to the opposition? How many people did you alienate when you claim something demostrably false?
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Nov 19th, 2009 10:35 am |
|
12th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
On the question: What do "we" do about people who torture and mass murder for profit (i.e. what do we do about Israel and Palestine, Afghanistan, etc.). Here is an example: Go to Google and type in No, More, Legal, Criminals How does that solve the problem? I find it very interesting to read your latest e-mail and find a question followed by an answer as if the two were coincidentally linked in the same e-mail, as if the subject changed from one question to something else entirely. As the question was raised in the e-mail I saw tortured bodies, mangled bodies, screaming dying previously human victims, the results of what “we” are doing in pipelineistan A, B, and C. The tortured bodies were plopped on the table with the question seeking an accurate and effective answer. What are “we” to do about torture and mass murder for profit (Pipelineistan, Israel, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc, the Peak Oil hobgoblin, etc.)? Plop The question writes about as it’s wet screaming form pollutes the mahogany office conference table with a weighty thud as it slaps onto the table. Cut Move on Next thing New stuff How can someone sell a very expensive project that has a very high probability of success in increasing available power to the human species at a very low comparative cost (after the initial investment)? So far, then, there is the PLOP of torturing mass murder on the table, wipe all that off the table with a clean swipe, and then offer up a new vision of investing available power in the process of producing more power – much more power. So here is my view of all that presto chango: Group A (The victims of legal torture and mass murder in Pipelineistan) Group B (The people who have no power in India). [To anyone not understanding what is being written here I can answer questions if they are asked] If the solution to the problem with group B is to invest power into the process of generating more power so that those people now have power, power to produce a better life, power to defend against the cold, power to defend against powerlessness, good, productive, inexpensive, cost effective, electric power produced into a state of abundance for all the people of India who have no electricity, if that is the solution to problem A, then what is the solution to problem B? If the solution to problem B is to send more power to the legal crimnials who legalize torture and mass murder for profit, so as to enable them to perpetuate their trade, their torture, and their mass murder, on ever increasingly more massive scales, then that hardly sounds like a solution to me. What is the problem? PLOP http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23944.htm P.S. http://dahrjamailiraq.com/
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 09:39 am |
|
13th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
HOW TO AOVID VICTIMIZATION The task before me, at this time, is to accurately convey to the reader a viewpoint that manages to avoid victimization. To do so: I am required to control language sufficient to accomplish the task, and also required is a sufficient interest from the reader; along with a ready supply of healthy skepticism, since the greatest power available to the potential victimizer is falsehood. Someone else might sell the reader some Snake Oil. Ignorance is dangerous, while falsehood is deadly, and deadly on purpose. Having thusly mapped out the main threat and by that warning the reader can turn their perspective away from danger the writer must now set about the chore of viewing and then communicating the road to liberty, and on this road the travelers will be accomplishing a simple math problem, a principle that is very simple, so simple that bacteria can even muster the intelligence to follow this path. Power produced must be greater than the power consumed, failing to do that, in any living case, any living being, and any cooperating group of one or more species, in concert, will result in an untimely death. Live ends when power income is less than power consumption. That is almost an irrefutable fact, and chances are that those who refute such an irrespirable force are either those who pave the way to greater power production or those who steal the available power from those who produce it. Here is where this writer will exemplify by illustration what is being conveyed with words. The principle works in ways that can be easily understood by other human beings, not just me. Suppose that the reader borrows my brain and with that new perspective the reader tackles one problem first and this accomplishment is thought through well enough to make sense. What problem could the reader tackle? Since the reader is borrowing my brain the reader tackles the political economy problem, it is one problem worth tackling. Not enough wisdom, leadership, and political power is currently being produced sufficient to ensure an abundance of economic power and to illustrate that fact in a measurable way the reader and the writer (since we are sharing a perspective) will now look toward one form of power as a focal point and we do so only for a moment, we must not dwell on this focal point for too long, as doing so will lead to a myopic viewpoint, a viewpoint that has no power, a viewpoint that won’t be sufficient for the job of solving problems. Oil power has been discovered and is now empowering human beings to a sufficient degree that more people are able to survive, and some survive very well, than ever before in human history. Oil power is so powerful, in fact, that oil power drives political economy to a point where moral law is less powerful than oil power. This may be a shocking viewpoint as the reader reads this viewpoint in awe of it. Oil power, to the mutual disgrace of our species has driven many of us to legalize such things as torture and mass murder, for oil, for profits, for “the good life” at the expense of many innocent victims, so oil power is a good place to start on this road to avoid victimization. We can learn from the current victims, and we can learn enough to avoid becoming victims, as we look at oil power, right now. You can stop reading here if you are either too caught up in the benefits of legalized torture, and mass murder, or if you prefer ignorance as a rule. This is where the door opens into moral conscience, close it if needed. Oil power is waning and a new power is on the rise, out with the old, and in with the new, so oil power can be viewed as “THE PROBLEM” with diligent and careful effort to avoid, once again, becoming myopic during the exercise. The illustrated power source, oil power, is going to exemplify the problem for us, so as to allow us to avoid it, and avoid repeating it in the future. Oil power drives men and women to greater power to an extent that some of us, some of the species human, have let the power go to our heads, to a point where the power in our control is abused. The object of the abuse of such great power is innocent victims who may offer a competitive power. The object in view is competition to the current power of oil. Please see this for awhile even if it doesn’t quite ring true as yet. Keep your mind open, but keep your mind sharp and ready to expose any falsehood from any quarter. Electricity is a competitive power. Now the reader has two things in view, not just one. On one front, in one direction, with one focused mind seeing it, is oil power. On the other front, in another direction, with time and energy, with a clear mind, with an interest in knowing, the viewer, the reader, the problem solver looks at electric power too. Oil power in view currently and this power helped drive people to legalize torture and mass murder. Electric power is in view too. Now, with these two powers in view, the reader is asked to compare the two and see the two as competitive powers seeking a larger interest in our time and energy. Those two powers, if the reader sees them as powers fighting for your attention, our interest, our time and our energy, then the reader can continue to borrow my brain and see a different future, different than what I call: The Doom Day Parade. We don’t have to see a future where the leaders of oil power destroy the planet in a great final conflict in the Middle East; where nuclear power is added to oil power and the result is a series of species ending mushroom clouds erupting, torturing, mass murdering, and all done legally, for our own good, of course. We also don’t have to see this Peak Oil scenario, if we prefer to see a better future, we don’t have to envision mass starvation of half the world’s population as the oil power reserves run out and everything made with oil becomes as scarce as a gold coin. We, as a caring, loving, and capable species can see and then produce a much more powerful future, a future that insures our survival as a species well past the life span of this solar system, not just the very limited time frame of oil power. To do so, to see more than the myopic viewpoint enforced upon us by oil power, we must see the competitors to oil power, and we must see clearly, accurately, and without error, we must produce accurate perceptions if we are to see the way around our problems. Having the oil power scenario in view, and then having one of the competitors to that power in view, electricity, and then having something called competition in view, and doing all this to exemplify, by illustration, a way forward, the viewer can no become armed with a new vision and then act upon that view, with a little more help, some very specific things to see, and see clearly, right now. Many people can know something called an upside down mortgage. This is where the buyer of a home, a very large cost, a very large amount of power being invested by the purchaser, 30 years of power consumed in the buying of this one thing, this place to live, this home, and the person spending all this power on this one thing, paid too much, somehow. Somehow the person buying the upside down mortgage spent 30 years of his or her life for something that was way over-priced. How stupid can some people get? Don’t feel too bad, more of the same thing is on the way and that is where the illustration you are now reading may ring truest. You may be in for a treat. Consider what may be happening right now as people are buying oil powered cars with money (purchasing power) that they don’t have yet, and this one new purchase will take the person 5 years to pay off, to own free and clear. 5 years to pay off a car purchase loan. While considering this as a thing someone will do right now, consider how many people will do this now. How many people are now signing onto the expense of 5 years of power so as to own a new oil powered car. Now think about things that are occurring right under your nose right now, things that you may not be noticing well enough to capitalize on them. Think about Solar Panels and Electric Cars, and think about them in context with the above words. Think about being upside down with your home mortgage, and then think about what will happen to someone holding a 5 year loan on a new oil powered car when mass produced electric cars take over the lion’s share of the automobile market world wide. Many people will be upside down with their transportation investments, very similarly compared to being upside down with shelter, or home, investments. Too much was spent, for some reason, on an over-priced commodity, and the purchaser is stuck with a bad investment. How does it feel? Oil prices are going up. Electricity prices are going down. Think about this rationally, clearly, and carefully. How many people would have avoided paying too much for something, when they did, if they knew better? If you are paying taxes to people who are in the oil power business, people “elected” by some very confused process mired in falsehood, so as to save your power to run your life on oil power, and you know the truth of it, but you don’t see any other path ahead. If that is you, what things have you been inspired to accept as good enough on that path? Do you accept that torture is good enough, to preserve oil power? Do you demonize people who illustrate the truth to you? Do you prefer ignorance, because it is easier to accept now, hoping for something better, something handed to you by some hired professional liar? Do politicians lie, and for whom do they lie? If a person were to begin seeing how oil power is going out, and going out with a big bang perhaps, and electric power (supplied by the sun), is on the way in, then a person may begin to see past the preferred state of ignorance, and see something much less capable of avoiding victimization. As more power is produced, rather than having power crushed by people who hate competition, more people will have the power to say no, no sir, I don’t want to be a part of that oil power business, and I don’t want to be a part of that business where all the competitors are crushed as a rule, by torture if necessary, and by mass murder when it serves “OUR” national interest. Who is profiting in the oil power business while oil power is on the way out? Who is turning their own power into investments in solar generated electric power in big ways, right now? When will all the oil power investors be upside down? Why will they be upside down? Having the courage, the imagination, and the raw power to see the truth and then act rationally on that accurate view is a powerful thing to do, sooner rather than too late.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 10:44 am |
|
14th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/forget-earth--lets-move-to-mars-1826775.html Forget Earth - let's move to Mars! If planet Earth becomes too crowded, where else in the solar system could humankind live? Space expert Steven Cutts considers our options  Down into the comment section on page 2:
Earth is an odd planet, no? From a perspective where the viewer has a grasp of the scale of a planet with and understanding of the ratio between volume and surface area, the water trapped around the thin surface layer is hard to imagine. Why doesn’t that water find its way to the source of gravity on earth? What prevents all that water in the oceans, for example, from seeking a way down into the core of this large globe? I’ll look for a picture where the viewer can begin to see the sale of which I’m seeing the layer of water standing on top of the thin crust of this planet Earth. Before doing so I can explain how that works with words. A golf ball has an enormous amount of surface area compared to the volume of the golf ball because it is small in scale; small in size. Scale up the golf ball to a basket ball and the surface area increases slightly compared to the great increase in volume. What happens when the scale is scaled up to the size of a planet?  Another way of seeing this scale perspective is thought the effort to understand a math problem when the viewer looks at an idea called: Gravity Train http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrQjMslFutc http://www.damninteresting.com/the-gravity-express 
Begin tracing straight lines through the earth and find a problem? How deep is the deepest man has drilled down into the impossibly vast volume of the planet? Here is a start: http://geology.com/records/deepest-part-of-the-ocean.shtml  [size=+0] [size=+0]Challenger Deep in the Mariana Trench is the deepest point in Earth's oceans. The bottom there is 10,924 meters (35,840 feet) below sea level. If Mount Everest, the highest mountain on Earth, were placed at this location it would be covered by over one mile of water. The Challenger Deep is named after the British survey ship Challenger II, which discovered this deepest location in 1951. It was first explored by Nereus, a deep-sea robotic vehicle designed by scientists at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in 2009. http://www.damninteresting.com/the-deepest-hole Today, the deepest hole ever created by humankind lies beneath the tower enclosing Kola’s drill. A number of boreholes split from the central branch, but the deepest is designated “SG-3,” a hole about nine inches wide which snakes over 12.262 kilometers (7.5 miles) into the Earth’s crust. The drill spent twenty-four years chewing its way to that depth, until its progress was finally halted in 1994, about 2.7 kilometers (1.7 miles) short of its 15,000-meter goal. Even more surprisingly, this deep rock was found to be saturated in water which filled the cracks. Because free water should not be found at those depths, scientists theorize that the water is comprised of hydrogen and oxygen atoms which were squeezed out of the surrounding rocks due to the incredible pressure. The water was then prevented from rising to the surface because of the layer of impermeable rocks above it.
There, look at that math problem, if the deepest penetration into the vast volume of the planet Earth is about 7 miles, and if the viewer can imagine trying to travel straight through the earth on a Gravity Train, think with your brain now, how far could the straight line of the Gravity Train go if it could only go 7 miles deep? What would be the longest distance the train could travel if it could only go 7 miles down into the Earth's vast volume? Suppose, for example, that your new Gravity Train started in New York City. Where could that Train travel too, how far could it go, if it could only travel down 7 miles, and the train travels through a straight line? The idea here isn't to be precise with the calculation; the idea is to begin to see the relationship between surface area and volume on a planetary scale. P.S. http://www.slideshare.net/erostad/the-scarcity-myth http://en.allexperts.com/e/n/ni/nikolai_kudryavtsev.htm Kudryavtsev introduced a number of other relevant observations into the argument about the theory of abiogenic petroleum origin. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/07/oil-discovered-in-russia-drilling-to.html MP: That seems like a pretty sensible drilling strategy: a Swedish company make a major discovery of oil in July, and it plans to start drilling in just TWO MONTHS. Compare that to the U.S. strategy - discover major deposits of crude oil in ANWR in 1987, and ban drilling for more than TWO DECADES. http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/peak_oil/drilling_developing_Dnieper-Donetsk.htm The modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins is by no means simply an academic proposition. After its first enunciation by N. A. Kudryavtsev in 1951, the modern theory was extensively debated and exhaustively tested. Significantly, the modern theory not only withstood all tests put to it, but also it settled many previously unresolved problems in petroleum science, such as that of the intrinsic component of optical activity observed in natural petroleum, and also it has demonstrated new patterns in petroleum, previously unrecognized, such as the paleonological and trace-element characteristics of reservoirs at different depths. Most importantly, the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins has played a central role in the transformation of Russia (then the U.S.S.R.) from being a "petroleum poor" entity in 1951 to the largest petroleum producing and exporting nation on Earth.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Dec 2nd, 2009 07:21 am |
|
15th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Nature does not tolerate willful ignorance. Nature does not tolerate stagnation.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Dec 4th, 2009 11:09 am |
|
16th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
Howard, On the subject of exposing the evils of people who use a religion to commit crimes: Place yourself in the shoes of a believer, this shouldn’t be hard, you are one.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 12:30 pm |
|
17th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/marshall5.1.1.html
Being in a bubble, as we are, limits our power to connect more accurately to the gods of truth.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Jan 4th, 2010 07:14 am |
|
18th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24310.htm
Its banks mostly finance production.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Jan 6th, 2010 10:41 am |
|
19th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 10:31 am |
|
20th Post |
|
Joe Kelley Administrator
|
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north801.html
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Current time is 12:08 pm | Page: 1 2 |
| Power Independence > Power Independence > Discovery > To Howard | Top |
