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| Austrian Economics | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 12:47 pm |
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1st Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Eric Englund, In reverence to this: http://www.lewrockwell.com/englund/englund34.html Particularly this: “The Austrian theory of the trade cycle will be validated yet again.” As that relates to this: Without bank credit expansion, supply and demand tend to be equilibrated through the free price system, and no cumulative booms or busts can then develop. ~ Murray Rothbard Experience has shown that this letter may not accomplish anything of value. Therefore I am going to challenge your words on my own forum and limit my exchange with you as a mere challenge to you. You are right, in your mind, I assume, and from my perspective that leaves little to be appreciated from my perspective. Otherwise; thanks for the article. This e-mail will be my opening statement as I use your article to communicate my thoughts. Please feel free to do as you please including a request by you to have me, the moderator on my forum, remove any reference to your article. Joe Kelley
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 01:18 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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The above post is a cut and paste from an e-mail sent today: Saturday April 22, 2006 I have not read the whole article in question as yet. The following will be conducted as if the article were a point - counterpoint discussion. The idea being; to show the differences between the Austrian Economic Theory perspective (as far as I can guess) and the Equitable Commerce perspective. Before diving into the article it is my judgment to offer some background concerning my personal experiences in the effort to find out just exactly what is and is not the Austrian Economic Theory. The following can be ignored. The reader can move onto the next post where the ‘debate’ will occur. In chronological order: I arrived on the planet July 5 1958. My family watched these events on T.V.: Assassination of John F. Kennedy Assassination of the ‘lone gunman’ Assassination of Robert Kennedy Assassination of Martin Luther King The Vietnam War My oldest brother just managed to avoid being drafted as the spreading of democracy er..fighting communism, whatever, failed before Bob could kick some ass. He didn’t want to kick any ass even though he had just arrived at the kicking ass age. My older brother Jack would have followed Bob a year later. I would be next one year after that and Dan would surely have followed the year latter; leaving Pete to follow up three years later if the war would have lasted that long. One might say that our family dodged a bullet. Those above events left an impression upon me that I sum up as: Economic curiosity I started reading and began to see a need to get involved. John Birch Society One book that stuck in my mind was written by Ludwig Von Misses. I didn’t read the whole thing. At that time my work load was heavy trying to make ends meet in the construction industry while providing for my small family of four. 1992 presidential elections – Ross Perot I joined United We Stand. Note: A threat on the life of Ross Perot’s daughter occurred and soon after the ‘race’ changed. 1996 Waco Texas I run for congress on the libertarian ticket. I read “Equitable Commerce”. All the pieces begin to come together. China is the current threat to the new world order. Read that in any way you please. Hydrogen and solar power will be the next revolution in human advancement. Falsehood is the greatest hurdle impeding human progress. On to the debate
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 01:56 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Note: This is a awkward forum. I have to edit the line spacing when converting from MS word. I'm partially illiterate and so MS Word is my crutch. "When I think back at all the crap I learned in High School" Paul Simon Note:  As far as I can tell: Austrian economics is a derivative of the following principle: “every individual will attempt to secure his own requirements as completely as possible to the exclusion of others.” Carl Menger (1840 -1921) Greed apology The above principle, again as far as I know, leads to the creation of the Value Principle. The Value Principle in my own words: Price is a function of value. The price will be set according to how much a particular item of value will bring. In other words if the price is too high, then, the item will not sell. If the price is to low the item is sold too cheap. Note: There is no mention of cost. Equitable Commerce requires the recognition of, at least, two principles: A. Individuality B. Cost Two Examples: A. War B. A device the turns water into fuel What is the calculated price for War and what is the calculated price on a device that turns water into fuel? Apply the Value Principle: A. War War is good for the economy. If the price is too high, then, War will not sell. If the price is too low, then, War is cheap. B. The device that turns water into fuel The device will compete with War as a better means by which the economy can thrive. If the price is too high, then, the device will not sell. If the price is too low, then, the device is cheap. Apply the Cost Principle: A. War War is legalized murder - an oxy moron directed by morons. All costs are assumed by the individuals involved in the exchange. The cost is the price. B. The device that turns water into fuel How much does it cost? That is the price. "Responsibility must be Individual, or there is no responsibility at all." Josiah Warren (1852)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 02:12 pm |
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4th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Particularly this: “The Austrian theory of the trade cycle will be validated yet again.” As that relates to this: Without bank credit expansion, supply and demand tend to be equilibrated through the free price system, and no cumulative booms or busts can then develop. ~ Murray Rothbard The above, as far as I can tell, presumes the inevitability, if not the wanton greed for, legalized currency. That is my confusion concerning Austrian Economics; in a nutshell. I've spend a fair amount of personal cost in polling the Modern Austrian Economists as to their concept of "Profit". That was one angle of view on the same confusion. I have yet to realize a precise response. Profit is, as far as I can tell, a social expansion of credit directly proportionate to expanding production over consumption. Now that may seem very strange to the reader. Profit, to the reader, as far as I can tell, may go like this: If I can sell something at a price that is well over costs, then, I can receive a large profit. Above may ring true for the reader. Compare that 'truism' to this: Profit is a human species capacity to produce more than the human species consumes. The above may go in one ear, get jumbled up, and pass out the anus. The reader will probably blame me for their discomfort. I just try to communicate what appears to be true and scientifically provable. Note: No one contends with what I write; therefore it must be shit.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 03:56 pm |
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5th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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My wife is now providing our family economy with the means to make costs equal consumption. In other words I am her employee in the effort to make our family work. I do the dishes, the laundry, council the kids on how to deal with bullies, get my son ready for higher learning (do not assume the cost of the student loan that requires registration for selective service), and, if time permits, defend against future calamity. I post the above in the effort to make this discussion relevant to reality. Theory is not reality. The Austrian Theory presumes that value is subjective and therefore value is a non factor. In other words; science is the guiding principle behind Austrian Theory. Remove subjectivity and arrive at objectivity. That is a fine thing. I ask, then, show me the money. Provide an example of Austrian Theory in practice. I can provide an example of "Equitable Commerce" in practice. The reader is encouraged to take a candid perusal of the case: A subjective viewpoint or historical accounting: http://libertarian-labyrinth.blogspot.com/2006/03/josiah-warren-first-american-anarchist.html#links From the horses mouth: http://tmh.floonet.net/pdf/jwarren.pdf More from the horse (or ass if one is predisposed to judge): http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/warren/truecivtoc.html A contemporary horse mouthing the same party line: http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/23806.html The above link is 'under construction'. More from Stephen Pearl Andrews on "Equitable Commerce" perspective applied to matters of diverse human action: http://praxeology.net/HJ-HG-SPA-LMD.htm The above is particularly relevant to this topic as it shines as an example of historical debate. One can find in those words almost all that is needed to know in the effort to learn 'how to' debate. The loser is inevitably the one who resorts to censorship. The public must be saved, at all cost, from the destructive force contained in revolutionary principles. Note: Assassination is censorship I post the above in response to Austrian Theory based upon a Scientific approach or Praxeology. I need not speak one word. A curious person can add and come up with a reasonable sum. The problem it seems to me is that some people would rather let another person arrive at the sum and that, my friends, is a problem when the sum of 2 plus 2 comes out to be 1 for you, so that you keep working, and 3 for the calculator. The cost of abdication can be rather high. Read for yourself and the odds are going to improve as to the possibility of your own individual theory arriving at greater accuracy. Science intends to remove subjectivity. People cannot remove themselves from value judgments. If they could, then, there would be no need for science. Every human being would be the best scientist having the same exact theory i.e. the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. No need for oaths. No religion. We would all be well acquainted with God and the same God for all to see all at once. Therefore: The Austrian Theory may be more accurate than Equitable Commerce, True Civilization, The Science of Society, The True Constitution of Government, and Cost the Limit of Price. Good luck trying to figure out what is and is not The Austrian Theory. Equitable Commerce is the same no matter who describes it with words. Equitable Commerce has been tested and the results definitive. Equitable Commerce is working now; one has to look no further than commerce on the Internet to realize all the principles involved since, at the moment, there is no law successfully impeding internet commerce. Cost is nearly the limit of price as determined by the individuals who freely arrive at their won individual calculations during each individual transaction. The internet, as an example of Free Markets in action, highlight actual principles in reality. The study of internet commerce is the study of the Free Market. No law, so far, is enforceable concerning currency used by individuals in the Global interconnected trade currently being conducted now. That may change and if so it may be a good idea to identify the individuals responsible for that enforcement effort. There is no need to study history. Study currency that is currently in use. Keep it free. That is the lesson of Equitable Commerce. What then is the lesson of Austrian Economic Theory? Eric Englund: Unfortunately, the common American does not understand he is being manipulated and impoverished by the Federal Reserve. When money is no longer real (i.e. fiat currency vs. gold and silver), then people may come to believe in the surreal, and a hyperreality emerges. Gold and Silver? One of my challenges offered to Austrian Economists is this: What is money? Specifically what is 'ideal' money? Human beings are now at a cross road. The species may have to take a giant leap backwards. If, for example, the 'powers that be' push a button that sends a "NuKular" warhead to Iran and that weapon of mass destruction explodes, then, the human race will take a particularly large step backwards. Why not send them shipments upon shipments of Solar Panels. Hook up those solar panels for them. What is the cost? Incalculable! From the Equitable Commerce perspective (not to be confused with 'from each according to their ability to each according to their need' perspective - read the links or suffer falsehood): Free trade, no sanctions, no government hampering whatsoever, the Iranian people could, if allowed, be 'interested' in purchasing on loan (they could be trusted to send payments of half their savings in electric fuel cost savings) solar panels, or devices that turn sewer water into fuel, or devices that turn water into gasoline supplements, etc., those individual Iranian customers could start a flow of commerce that generates value to be consumed by individual Iranians, and a the same time, enrich producers at home in America. An Iranian so disposed to take the offer can call Home Depo and place an order now. No longer would an Iranian have to depend upon Iranian government officials to defend against American aggression just to keep their own house warm, or cool, and just to feed their suffering families. Step back a few years. Make the same deal to the Iraq people. The ball is in your court. Note: I do not condone any foreign policy other than Equitable Commerce. None whatsoever. Government can best be defined as Insurance. Example: http://www.lewrockwell.com/molyneux/molyneux19.html The premium we now pay is high indeed. Who is responsible for the deed? Once the button is pushed it will be impossible to put the fallout back into the missile. Last edited on Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 04:00 pm by Joe Kelley |
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22nd, 2006 04:39 pm |
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6th Post |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/stern1.html What continues to plauge mankind is defined by one who should know: "Any man who has once acclaimed violence as his METHOD must inexorably choose falsehood as his PRINCIPLE." Alexandr I. Solzhenitsyn http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1970/solzhenitsyn-lecture.html When the human experiment ends and God has everyone's attention, all at once, for our common voice to be heard in account of our failure it may well be important to consider now, while some of us remain alive, to hazard a guess as to the message presented to God. There will be no cause for deception of any kind whatsoever. There will be no possible misunderstanding. What then is your guess? We didn't know? We were just following orders? I had my hands full at the time? My guess, because I am an optimist at heart, is that the human race will voice praise rather than excuse. A child’s smile will suffice. See God; she was filled with joy. She was safe, happy, fed, and warm. Your experiment worked beyond all expectations. Thanks Excellent work! Why post this drivel here? I know. I follow no order. I am alive and am therefore capable of making errors in judgment. Forgive me; please.
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