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kurtwaters Guest
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This is going somewhere...eventually, I promise. Because the word, lie, is used repeatedly in your posts I though it important to define what we mean by a lie. Here is my definition: A lie is a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification. Thus, an actor on a stage, though he has chosen to mislead a target is not lying because the audience has notification. Or in a poker game, bluffing is not a lie because the rules of the game are notification. Shall we take this to be our definition of what a lie is? |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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If I can please add to the definition of a lie, my addition would be such: A deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to the employer of the device. The reason why I find it useful to add that to the definition has to do with my overall perspective of life as a power struggle. The definition without the addition still works, I suppose, from a perspective that does not employ power as a measuring tool, but since that is how I see things, the addition adds that method of seeing/measuring. Cui bono? Mike, I started a conversation with you in mind on this forum at a moment after we tried to discuss things on facebook recently. I can find it and link it. Oh, there you are already, I could have guessed. |
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kurtwaters Guest
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I find it intriguing how thought processes differ from person to person. You have a tendency, or so it seems to me, to run too many thoughts together. Run-on sentences and trying to express two (and sometimes more) concepts simultaneously make your writing difficult to absorb. Sometimes I have to re-read a paragraph or sentence several times to make any sense of it. (Don't take offense, sometimes I have to do this with the writings of Nobel laureates.) Your addition to the definition of a lie is a good example. I see perfectly clearly why you want to add the restriction. It is important to your world view. It is important to what a lie means to you. I think, however, it will only lead to confusion. Here is what I suggest: create another word. Lie: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification Now, create a new word and new definition, for example: new word : using lies to effect a power transfer We should keep in mind, by the way, that maybe a word already exists in our or another language which conveys this meaning, but we are unaware of it. There are many words I do not know. I look forward to your word invention. Don't forget to use it in a sentence. I am also anxious to know whether you agree with the idea of separate definitions. Tuesdays are my Mondays so I am busy for the next five days. I will write when I can on this topic and on the free will topic. Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2013 08:19 pm by |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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No I do not agree with the reasoning of removing the words that intend to accurately measure intent. It is not for personal reasons, since I can be left out of the discussion entirely. It (reasoning) exists this way, with our without me, so that is why I prefer to leave the words in. I do agree that testing is better than abstract exchanges, or transfers, of powerful, or powerless, ideas. Before moving onto tests, I have an idea concerning why the concept of accurately measuring intent surfaces in my working perception, and this idea has to do with entertainment. As you have already pointed out, a distortion of fact can be beneficial to the liar and the target audience of the lie is paid well too, at the same time, and for this reason you add the wording about giving notice. Edit: (The example in my mind of entertainment/notice/mutually beneficial is the "It is a Club" routine by George Carlin - it s not a club, it is legal crime, calling it a club is a lie in my opinion) Stand up comedians give notice. How often are you confronted with someone you think is serious, yet it is discovered that they were "only kidding" or they were speaking "tongue in cheek", later on? Miscommunication is not lying, neither is telling jokes where information is not factual, giving notice is the fine print, limited liability, get out of jail free, heads up, honest, open, moral, generosity, to say hey, look out, this stuff is dangerous. My perspective may be superfluous to you, adding extra, non essential, overdone, words. I think not, still, but I am up to the challenge of pointing out if, or if not, those additions are essential to reach the goal. I can offer the goal, as I see it, and again I, me personally, can be left out, and the goal can be self evident, as survival, and knowing better how to survive better, not simply as an individual, but anything at all, from the least complex the the highest complexity, the goal is to survive well. Hydrogen survives well enough, we humans are struggling. Surviving well. That is the goal, as I see it. That is the goal even if I don't see it. Onto the work: Falsehood (or lies, but why have two words for one human action?) is my word choice (with the possibly superfluous additions). Falsehood: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to the employer of the device. Sentence: The criminal with a badge spoke about the war on terror to the audience of assembled tax payers, and one of the observers understood that the process was deception, as the criminal lied, and spread falsehood disguised behind false fronts of such variety of wording as to render the goal of living better impossible to achieve since the targets, and even those doing the targeting, remove their capacity to communicate with the invention, production, and distribution of lies, instead of working together to know better as to how to survive well. Edit: (I may have singular and plural mixed up?) The goal is to gain at the expense of the targeted victims while actual progress, overall, is toward the end of all life, as the means to the end actually moves the opposite direction in time. But I run on, and on, with the same line of thinking, too much, so I need to get back to the sentence, or make the sentence short and workable. The liar lied. The criminal fraud perpetrated the crime of fraud. The person invented, produced, and employed the lie to reach the goal in mind. The person used falsehood to get something. The person used a lie. The person used falsehood. The person used entertainment. The person used advertizements. The person used magic. The person used legalese. The person used behavioral modification. The person used response conditioning. The person used double speak. The person used newspeak. The person used brainwashing. The person used enhanced interrogation techniques. The person used extraordinary rendition. The person spread democracy. The person used inflation. The person used quantitative easing. The person used one lie. I went on a rant? I need to refresh my working memory with the step offered by you, to reach the goal that I stated, and the goal that I think that we share. Here is what I suggest: create another word. Lie: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification Now, create a new word and new definition, for example: new word : using lies to effect a power transfer Falsehood works as far as I can tell. I can add: Language baffles me, it makes little sense to me. I've tried reading, for example, a book titled On Language by Noam Chomsky, and I can't understand 1 out of 100 sentences in that book. We should keep in mind, by the way, that maybe a word already exists in our or another language which conveys this meaning, but we are unaware of it. There are many words I do not know. Yes, I have just a few days ago had a Russian discussing ideas along those lines through e-mail, but it has been some time since his last e-mail. I asked if I can publish our conversations, and he said yes. I can cut and paste his words in agreement with your words just now quoted above if requested. I look forward to your word invention. Don't forget to use it in a sentence. I am also anxious to know whether you agree with the idea of separate definitions. Falsehood: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to the employer of the device. Sentence: The liar spread falsehood for some reason, and I can't tell if he even knew the reason. A lie is a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification. The liar invented the lie, and I can't tell if he even knew the reason. The liar parroted the lie, and I can't tell if he even knew the reason. The liar invented the deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification, and I can't tell if he even knew the reason, but I can ask. The liar invented the deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to the employer of the device, but I know the lie is a lie so now the liar is vulnerable if I can invent a lie to mislead that person who just lied, without notification, so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to me. This is going somewhere...eventually, I promise. I know that is true. |
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kurtwaters Guest
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I do not have the time to digest all of that right now. Intent is critical. Intent is important. I will have more on that. Right now I am focused on avoiding confusion in expressing our ideas. Am I to understand that in your opinion every lie, every deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification, is used with the intent to transfer power? This seems to be what you are saying. As for falsehood, that word is already taken. If one of your readers looked it up in the dictionary it would say: 1.Lack of conformity to truth or fact; inaccuracy. 2. An untrue statement. Your intent factor is missing. Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2013 09:24 pm by |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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This forum is difficult to manipulate for me. I tried to quote you words before adding my reply, and then I was unable to add any words after the quote. Right now I am focused on avoiding confusion in expressing our ideas. Now I can add words. Starting a reply with a quote is a choice to then be unable to add words after the quote. I think your quoted words above are understood by me as a statement of a goal, which sounds much like my stated goal of surviving well. I can't know how to survive well if I am confused; as far as I can tell confusion is relatively destructive to the goal of surviving at all, let alone surviving well. Am I to understand that in your opinion every lie, every deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification, is used with the intent to transfer power? This seems to be what you are saying. I don't think it has anything to do with my opinion. We can test to see if it is true or not, and in that way my opinion can be left out of the discussion. If there is a case of a lie, where the liar was not intending to transfer power from the target to the liar then such an exception, if one exists, can prove the case, even if I have nothing to do with it - other than a disinterested observer who could be someone on Mars, or Titan, looking at the event from afar. I can try to think of a reason for lying, and when I try to think of a reason for lying I keep coming up with a power transfer in my mind, to gain at the expense of the target, in some way, such as the often repeated phrase "for fun or profit". What is needed, it seems to me, are confessions from liars. Once the exception is found, you prove your point, and then I can know what you mean by lies, and then we can move on? As for falsehood, that word is already taken. If one of your readers looked it up in the dictionary it would say: 1.Lack of conformity to truth or fact; inaccuracy. 2. An untrue statement. Your intent factor is missing. To me there are many lies in the dictionary. Case in point: Inflation "The government has been unable to control inflation." How about Gretnubnaub as such: Gretnubnaub: : a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification so as to effect a transfer of power from the target to the employer of the device. |
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kurtwaters Guest
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I am still acquainting myself with this site as well. Practice makes perfect, as they say. Except Uncle Bebe. Uncle Bebe would often say to me when I lived on Snyder St. back in the late 1970's that practice makes worse. "I mean," he would say, "What if I am practicing it the wrong way?" The help page, though in need of improvement, works fairly well. I'll keep that in mind about leading with quotes. That should be enough leading. Yes, you are correct. "Right now I am focused on avoiding confusion in expressing our ideas," is a small goal designed to avoid the destructive effects of unintended miscommunication on the attainment of the main goal. I should point out that I despise goals, but they are like taking a shit: necessary. When I was a child, around five, and I remember this clearly, I hated taking a shit. They were too big: my turds, that is. The toilet technology must have sucked back then because I was always clogging the toilets in our house and in the houses of friends that I visited. I remember more than once using my hands to break up the turd into flushable pieces when I could not find some suitable instrument for doing so. I could hold my poop for a long time. Then came the enemas. I won't even get into that. But I digress. As a young adult I simply thought taking a shit was pointless and distracting. I know better now. It's a necessary function and with a little self awareness can even be enjoyable. I don't mind shitting at all anymore. Good call, cuz: separating opinion from fact, or in this case, a definition. Say you are me at five years old and mom has just asked you if you pooped today. You know that to answer no means an enema. So you lie, and answer yes. What power has transferred? How is Gretnubnaub pronounced? Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2013 06:52 pm by |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Gretnubnaub can be pronounced correctly by competitive effort.Say you are me at five years old and mom has just asked you if you pooped today. You know that to answer no means an enema. So you lie, and answer yes. What power has transferred? Your mom has a phone. Please consider my position at this point. Please, please, please, look at the following link while we inspect your example of a lie, and to me there is only one way to find out the accurate answer to the question that asks why someone resorts to deception/falsehood/lies/gretnubnaub. I am just now looking at this video for the first time but as you probably know the subject matter is not new to me. Lies or not? P.S. It was you dad that I heard, for the first time, the concept of "practice makes worse" so as far as I know, subject to further evidence, your dad is the source of that idea; he may have borrowed it from David. P.P.S. Power of knowledge (in mom eyes) is knowing better as to the right thing to do, and power in the child's eyes is whatever you thought was the right thing to do, which power won by that employment of that lie (in other words: did your mom suffer from the lie because she was duped by the son?) and was that a lie, as in my use of the word, or was that a lie as in your use of the word? My use is specific to power struggles on a massive scale. Your use is specific to power struggles on a massive scale from the eyes of a child? |
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kurtwaters Guest
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Today is the fourth day of my five day work week, so I am noticeably more weary. This weariness effects my ability to think and write. Please bear this in mind today. After I pressed the enter button to post my previous reply, and thanks to some input from my wife, the "power of knowledge" answer was fully anticipated. I could have bet my life on it, so to speak. Whether or not knowledge is power can be saved for another debate, but for now I can accept this as a valid premise and continue. I can continue because when you first submitted this restriction in the definition of a lie that I first proposed and I then said it should be a separate word you spoke mostly of intent. It now appears to me that what you actually mean is result. In other words a lie is a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification that results in a transfer of power. This works for me. So then, I rephrase my first question. Lie: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification resulting in a transfer of power. Shall we take this to be our definition of what a lie is? I think this definition works regardless of the scale of the power struggle be it citizen and government or mother and child. I like it. Makes the definition more universal. With regards to the link (and I promise I am not snubbing you)--- The Lies or not link doesn't belong in this discussion because I don't know if what is discussed in the video is a lie or not yet. With this forum topic on lies I am discussing lies philosophically. I'll have to do some research, as well as watch the whole video, but I haven't the energy for that right now. Create another forum topic titled geo-engineering and transfer that link as well as any other links you feel are pertinent. I have already bookmarked the you-tube page. I have read some on this topic before. It's most interesting. We can post our thoughts on this in the other forum topic page. I also notice you have a lot of info already in one called Aerosol Crimes. We can use that one if you want and i'll check out the video along with all the other items you have already posted in Aerosol Crimes. 'kay? ps.. that you-tube video seems as if it is not the beginning. Like it's the middle or the pieces of some longer video. maybe you can find the original. Last edited on Fri Mar 1st, 2013 08:10 pm by |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Mike,Shall we take this to be our definition of what a lie is? I think this definition works regardless of the scale of the power struggle be it citizen and government or mother and child. I like it. Makes the definition more universal. I think you have managed to receive my viewpoint intact and your responding viewpoint teaches me something I had not yet understood as well as a I do now, since your words point me, direct me, steer me, move me, cause me to be moved, change my direction, alter my path, onto a new path that I think is better. The lie isn't one unless it works as one, for if it were not a working lie, then it would be like the tree falling in the forest and no one, anywhere, can hear it. I am still willing to proceed in any case, as to whatever you want to do with words and definitions, but I think it does help to find agreement in definitions when the goal is shared, and I think the goal is shared, where we both want to know better. I want to know better, as to what you think, because your viewpoint is very valuable to me, since I am very limited with my own meager viewpoint. I don't want to settle for half knowing your viewpoint, or guesses on my part, or assumptions, or anything short of knowing the facts concerning your viewpoint and where can I ever go to confirm the facts other than you - unless I can't trust you: and then I can go nowhere fast on that fast track if that is the case. The Lies or not link doesn't belong in this discussion because I don't know if what is discussed in the video is a lie or not yet. There is a huge cost to knowing me, and I've been informed of that huge cost to knowing me all my life, and I do work to minimize the cost where I think I can, and where I refuse, I refuse to limit the cost paid by those who dare to contact me, to know me, and suffer that cost. I want to stick 8 by 10 glossy photos of torture victims in everyone's faces all the time and scream constantly at everyone, yelling to them to wake the fuck up, why can't you see what a few very powerful people are doing TO YOU and to me. So...thanks for your patience, and your persistence, in sticking to the topic as you see it to be, this is, as the phrase goes "your dime". Create another forum topic titled geo-engineering and transfer that link as well as any other links you feel are pertinent. I started a relevant topic some years ago, and when I get new data (subject to scrutiny) my desire to plaster it in front of people's paths goes "through the roof", and that is me, that is how I operate, and I'm too old now to expect that I will suddenly change my methods of operation. OK on the need to stick to the topic at hand, please excuse the outburst, it will happen again, so I'm not going to say I am sorry about it, I'm not, and I can report agreement on the need to stick to the topic, but the reason I have for placing that here is to introduce the concept of scale, to reinforce it, not as an argument, just as a point of perspective I have, you don't have to share it, and if I see a need to discard it, then I can discard it. Here: I think this definition works regardless of the scale of the power struggle be it citizen and government or mother and child. If it is not on the scale then it isn't a lie, as far as I am concerned, but scale is important since a lie may be near the edge, so close to the edge, that that specific lie is less able to illustrate exactly what a lie is, such as those lies that manage to work so well, as intended. The nature of the scale, in other words, at least to me, is instructive: knowing better. So...I threw the diversion in, as if to say, hey, Mike, is this a lie or not? You offered an example. I offered and example. I think we can proceed from this point. From here: Lie: a deliberate choice to mislead a target without notification resulting in a transfer of power. Thanks for the picture of the happy couple in the red pajamas. You deserve good things Mike, and I don't know what Cathy did to deserve you, but it must have been special. |
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kurtwaters Guest
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Your welcome, for the picture that is. I wish I could reach into my computer and give you a hug. Humanity needs guidance. The question is what manner of guidance, or perhaps better put, what awareness is necessary to achieve the management of a society that doesn't require management? We, meaning humanity, are missing something. I have a notion what that is, but not a complete picture. I believe you are in the same position. I am steering this particular dialogue in a direction to share ideas and concepts in order to eventually compose an essay of some sorts that may help others to make some sense out of their lives. It is a kind of free-writing. I think it is working. This will be continued, but I need to work a bit more on the next step. Plus, I want to review some of the links and info you have on this site to get a firmer grasp of your scale. I did find that video I was looking for before. I am going to create a new topic for it and post it there. I do have a question though. When did you become interested in all this? I could tell you a story about a time when I was a student at Cal Poly when I nearly got the crap beat out of me following an argument in a bar in Pomona regarding the, then recent, bombing of Gaddafi's compound in Libya ordered by Reagan in 1986. I don't remember you caring one way or the other back then about what was and is happening. |
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Joe Kelley Administrator
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Do no harm.Humanity needs guidance. There is plenty, an abundance of it, too much of it is false. I think that the very few very best criminals have taken over control of all their targets, which is everyone, including themselves, and they are creating hell on earth. My viewpoint is not a wild ass guess. When those few are more generally known to be exactly what they are, then there will be more demand for accurate guidance, or in short: we have been lied to. The full cost of the lies are as abundantly obvious as the very good examples of guidance that are abundantly clear for anyone caring to look. In my opinion. I don't remember you caring one way or the other back then about what was and is happening. My first exposure to the things that I care about, summed up as Legal Crime, was in 1975, when my High School class (can't remember which class) project was a Book Report. I chose a book titled The Lusitania. I care as much about solving these problems as I care about making the most of life as it exists, so when I am around other people, for the most part, I do as they do, to find out how much fun we can both have together, or if there is more of us then football is even more fun, or handball tennis, or whichever suggestion caries the moment. At various points in time I have hit forks in the road that include reproduction, causing greater care to erupt like a fever, and then there was that Waco thing. I can go on and on about that mess, and how my direction through life went onto a divergent path. So, it shows more now, but inside me there is always a battle between angels and devils, and I can even remember back at Snider Street where I made a deal with God and the Devil whereby I would be their arbitrator if they ever needed one. Why fight? |
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