 |
PM |  | |
Quote | | |
Reply | | |
Full Topic | |
| Joined: | Mon Nov 21st, 2005 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 6399 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: |    |
Josf, with regard to the currency question, do you support a citizens dividend as outlined here:
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=161315.0
Yes or no? I'd also like to hear why.
freedom_commonsense,
I can't speak for or against a citizens dividend without a much more accurate understanding of who wants to do what to whom and when.
I have read enough at this point to get a general idea as to what is being proposed.
If a citizens dividend is created and then implemented it will, as far as I understand it so far, be an example of a competitive legal money system, and as such, if I understand it well enough, it will either cause The Fed to go out of business, or inspire The Fed (the people in control of it) to improve the quality and reduce the cost of their money system to a higher quality and lower cost compared to the competitor, or The Fed people will use deceit, threats of violence, or acts of violence to destroy the citizens dividend legal money system.
If I understand the citizens dividend well enough I will choose it over The Dollar Hegemony as my power to do so becomes my power to do so, and therefore my power will be used to end The Fed extortion crime spree.
I can also say that I think that the citizens dividend sounds like a method of taxation followed by a method of surplus wealth redistribution and so long as the taxation part is voluntary, such as what would be the case in a working Federated Democratic Republic, not the National Consolidated One Nation Government Legal Crime Extortion Racket we have now, under The Constitution, and so long as the surplus wealth redistribution part was as voluntary as the taxation part, and again something that is, as far as I've seen, a real possibility within a working Federated Democratic Republic, and not at all possible, actually against the law, in a Nation State like the one created with The Constitution.
The premise of the citizens dividend, if I understand the concept, is such that there will be surplus wealth, and then once there is surplus wealth, the people in the National Government will take it, somehow, and then once the people running the Nation Government have that surplus wealth taken from those who create it, they then divide it out to people they pick by some method of picking who will get the surplus wealth that the people running the National Government have gained power over.
In a working Federated Democratic Republic the concepts that are now on the table can be illustrated to point out a few general principles involved in what I call The Problem.
The Table (co-conspirators gathering around a table and planning to re-take control over their own Nation Government)
1. Business as usual (The Dollar Hegemony)
2. Citizens Dividend
3. Product 1, and Product 2
Those are the things on the table, as far as I can tell so far.
Suppose that Montana begins using a State wide citizens dividend, and suppose that the people running the criminal National government don't intervene by deceit, or by threats of violence, or by acts of violence to stop that threat to their legal money monopoly power, such as they had done in both Shays's rebellion, when the people running the criminal Massachusetts government suppressed the competitive use of Whiskey as a currency, during that period when the criminals running the Massachusetts government used their monetary money monopoly power to conduct aggressive wars for profit that failed, and then they inflated their legal fraud money, and then they drove out gold from Massachusetts, as people purchased import goods with gold, since import sellers would not accept the fraudulent money, and since the ex-military frontiersmen began making their own money at home, in the form of whiskey, and since a money monopoly can't survive in competition, the rebellion was violently ended, since the rebels didn't fall for the lies that were meant to cover it up, and in the other case: Washington crushed the second Whiskey Rebellion, once the legal criminals had their enabling documents in place, their Constitution, the president is already well set, that Montana is going to have a tough time running a separate competitive legal money system in reality. We can suppose that Montana goes ahead, and we can suppose that Montana begins using the State wide citizens dividend, and we can suppose that the people running The Fed, or U.S.A. Inc. (LLC) allow it.
We can suppose such things to bring light to the differences between a working Federated Democratic Republic and a Nation State, while we compare that competition with a monetary competition.
So...on the table now are:
I.
Nation State (Dictatorship)
1. The FED legal extortion crime spree in progress
2. Citizens Dividend exclusive to Montana (to see how it works in Montana and to see if it spreads into neighboring States within the operating Dictatorship)
3. Product 1, and Product 2 (which is offered to anyone on the planet, but begins in California initially)
II.
Federated Democratic Republic (such as the Swiss example, or the example offered in history by The Articles of Confederation - before The Constitution created a working Dictatorship)
1. The Fed legal extortion crime spree (accepted voluntarily by all the Separate and Sovereign State governments except Montana and California)
2. Citizens Dividend exclusive to Montana
3. Product 1, and Product 2 exclusive to California
So far now we suppose that there is one money monopoly as The Fed, with their Dollar. We then suppose that Montana begins an adjustment to the Nation wide legal money system, by implementing a State wide citizens dividend system, and the people in control of the Montana legal apparatus either use The Dollar unit of currency, or they produce and maintain a separate currency, I don't know enough about the citizens dividend to comment on that point, other than to say that The Fed is the source of Dollars, so how does Montana get the Dollars they use to begin their citizens dividend, or, what happens if The Fed decides to change from Boom to Bust, as they are doing now with what they call "tight money policy", or, what happens if the people running the criminal Fed say they are doing one thing while they do the opposite, or what happens to the Montana use of the Dollar in their citizens dividend campaign if The Fed raises the interest rate only to those who borrow Dollars from Montana, and lower the interest rate to everyone else, or what happens if the Fed people decide to cut off the supply of Dollars to anyone within the Nation State, including Montana, while the people at the Fed pump as many new Dollars they create into China, and Europe, and all over the Globe, in preparation for a new World War, while Montana tries to implement a new system of money use, with Dollars as the legal Montana money unit?
Now, to help expose the principle differences between a competitive Federated Democratic Republic, and a one Nation, indivisible, under whatever God imaginable, I can offer a third State, California, in the involuntary or voluntary Union, whereby that State, California, uses Product 1 and Product 2, and that State uses a different legal monetary unit, completely disconnecting from The Dollar extortion racket, as time goes by, since Product 1 is used to pay off all the Dollar Unit loans, one at a time.
So now, for you to consider, are three competitors working out in time, within this Nation State Legal Crime Cabal, or without it (a working Federated Democratic Republic instead of a Nation State), and again it must be assumed that the monopolists keep their minds and hands off the competitors, so as to allow the viewers the chance to view what could happen under that supposed, competitive, scenario.
1. The Dollar keeps doing what it does, where it does what it does, such as what is documented on the National Debt Clock.
2. Montana does what it does with it's working citizens dividend, with or without The Dollar unit of currency as their exclusive legal currency unit - I do not know which choice is taken by the supporters of the citizens dividend.
3. Product 1 and Product 2 begin working in California and I can also remind anyone that those products are offered to anyone on the globe, and the entire transaction can occur on-line from anywhere on the globe, which occurs all the time in modern business practice.
I can speak in detail as to what happens with Product 1 and Product 2, I do not yet see any need to support, or to not support a citizens dividend, since I am ignorant concerning it, other than guesses I have about it, based upon the limited information I have seen so far.
Here is an opportunity to support the best of three competitive examples of government run money competitors as competition forces higher quality and lower cost upon the competitors, so long as one competitor does not begin to use deceit, threats of violence, and acts of violence, effectively, in the work to eliminate competition.
I think about The Problem, and the obvious solution often enough, to wake up with it running in my head, for decades, and I can confirm that the solution is a numbers problem, there is power in numbers, and once enough people realize the true nature of the problem, and once enough people realize the essential principles involved in the solution, the problem will cease to be a problem, and that can happen on one day, where the day before the problem existed, and the day after the problem is no longer a problem, so long as enough people solve the problem on that new day.
Set a date on the calender, much like a date to March on Washington with guns and a rope, only make the protest date a peaceful day of total revolution, and on that coming date the people decide to use a better, competitive, money - effective on that date. If not enough people are ready on that date, the date moves to a later date, and when enough people are ready, the revolution happens on that date, those left holding the Dollar Debt Bag, on that date, lose, but they were given advance notice, and while people maneuver to get their power to control their legal portions of surplus wealth it can become very evident as to who is friend and who is foe, such is the nature of open, and honest, competition.
Once the day when enough people have signed onto the new declaration of independence, and everyone having an interest in the event know that the new money will be used, and the old money will be discarded, those who still think they can get something for nothing with the old money, may, or may not, depending upon who is left holding that empty bag.
If the people wanting to solve the problem insist upon using the cause of the problem to solve the problem then that is what they do, I don't. I see no point at all in supporting a solution that intends to use the cause of the problem as a means of solving the problem, if that is what the citizens dividend is, in fact.
Does the citizens dividend intend to use the National (monopoly) government apparatus, as it now exists, to solve the problem, complete with The Dollar unit of currency? If so, then, how does that solution intend to address the National Debt?
Product 1 and Product 2 intends to replace The Dollar as the best money choice that most of the honest productive people will choose to use, once they have a choice, instead of having no choice, or one choice, and that one choice happens to be one of, if not the worst, competitors on the global monetary monopoly money extortion racket market.
Product 1 and Product 2 can start anywhere on the planet where enough people involved constitute a powerful force of diverse skills and abilities that are required to produce high standards of living, both products do not work without division of labor, specialization, and economies of a scale that is sufficient to be independent, and remain independent against criminal aggression of any scale on the planet.
If you have read what I just wrote, again not a sound bite, and you do not agree that the supposed competition between separate States begins to expose, or illustrate, the concept of a Federated Democratic Republic, then I think you fail to understand the concept, but go ahead and blame me for your failure - because that is how you are programmed to respond to things that tax your brain.
If you understand the concept but still do not agree with the concept, then how can I know why you don't agree with the concept if you do not explain why you disagree with the concept? If you think, for example, that a citizens dividend will work, competitively, against Product 1, and Product 2, in California, while your citizens dividend works in all the other States in the Involuntary Union, then explain how that works, in your mind.
In my mind Product 1, if it is offered, and if it is made legal, world wide, nation wide, or just California State wide, will take over the market in a very short time, as people turn in their old Dollar denominated mortgages, and begin using, demanding, getting paid with, the new competitive money, and that has not even begun to explore what will happen when Product 2 moves into general use.
If you think that I have no capacity to understand the citizens dividend thing, then think again, such things are well covered in Equitable Commerce, a link I have already linked, and if that isn't enough, to explain the concept of a citizens dividend (based upon surplus wealth), then read:
http://anarchism.net/scienceofsociety.htm The Science of Society
In those sources it becomes clear that surplus wealth accumulates in large sums as a direct result of the generally accepted practice of fixing the price of something according to the demand for it, which is an outdated, and obviously destructive practice, that is falling by the wayside, as surplus wealth grows, when it is allowed to grow, and while it continues to grow despite all the enormous force that is designed to prevent the growth of surplus wealth.
When surplus wealth no longer accumulates in large sums, as a result of prices that are jacked up by monopoly forces, the result is wealth redistribution, by way of open, and honest, competition, and therefore more surplus wealth is produced by more people, there is then more surplus wealth, and therefore the unit of monetary currency gains purchasing power (assuming that the supply is not deceitfully, or fraudulently, inflated, or deflated) as a direct result of less monopoly power causing prices going higher than cost, and more open and honest competition forcing quality up and price down - to cost.
I have to cut off my reply to meet the demand for it, down to a sound bite, from my viewpoint. Please do not take my "if the shoe fits, wear the shoe" words personally, unless the shoe fits, then it stand to reason that you will wear the shoe, and take it personally. I do not target anyone with my words that intend to fit the shoe on those who wear that shoe, so again, please, don't take anything I say, addressed to anyone, personally, unless the shoe fits. If the shoe does not fit, why would you wear the shoe? I am being civil despite the enormity of The Problem as facts intend to overpower fiction.