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| Joined: | Mon Nov 21st, 2005 |
| Location: | California USA |
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You wrote:
To Josf, if you think it's a stupid question, don't then waste time and space with an elongated answer of what has already been said simply to try to take a cheap shot at the end. Spare us that.
A. If I think something, I think something, and that is the truth.
B. If you only want to hear the things you prefer to hear, please consider saying so when you publish your questions. Don't waste your own time reading things you don't want to read.
C. I have been writing on forums for decades, and I keep writing on forums because, to me, it isn't a waste of my time, and it isn't a waste of my space, and if you, or anyone, have a problem with me taking up space, take it up with the moderators, they can certainly ask me to stop publishing on this forum, and I will stop taking up space here.
D. Cheap, to me, is wanting something for nothing, as if no one ever has to pay for someone getting something for nothing.
You ask a question about torture, and if you have not thought about it, then it is accurate to say that you are ignorant about it, which is a factual measure of reality. If you don't like being called ignorant, even if you are ignorant, if you think it is a cheap shot, then, to me, you are ignorant about that too. There is no shame in being ignorant, or innocent, but failing to know things that must be known, so as to remain innocent, is stupid, or criminal, in my opinion.
I write things that fall under the category of "if the shoe fits" you wear the shoe.
If you are learning, then you were ignorant before you learned something. That shoe fits.
If you now know the truth about torture, but you refuse to acknowledge the facts, and in response you strike out at someone offering you the facts, then what are you, what shoe are you wearing at that point in time?
You tell me.
Or
Attack me for offering you what I think, and attack me for offering you possible angles of view that are accurate angles of view in response to your questions, even if you prefer not to know a more accurate angle of view, and even if you take it personally.
Why would you take what I wrote personally, unless you are wearing the shoe of being stupid?
What exactly do you think is a cheap shot concerning the actual words I wrote, and not the meaning you injected into the words I wrote?
Do you think you can come in here and ask a question about torture, in this world, where torture is paid for by honest productive people, in the form of involuntary taxation, and get away clean, and innocent, as if you have no hand in it? Do you think you can get something for nothing?
People may want to look in the mirror, if people are paying these taxes, in dollars, to the legal, torturing, and mass murdering cabal, because that flow of power constitutes psychological as well as material support, an accurate physical account, a paper (digital) trail, connecting you, the tax payer, to the next pound of flesh removed from the next victim, innocent victim, or victim who is just as guilty as the persons torturing him, or her, including all the little innocent children slaughtered on our dimes since who knows when, what did they do to deserve U.S.A. made, and delivered, torture?
You expect what, when you ask your questions?
My question is why is it a problem for the CIA to have a secret prison where they can interigate and, if need be, torture to extract information that can save many lives? I'm not saying it's okay or that I agree with it, I'm just asking. Is it because the majority of people here do not believe that the people in these prisons have ANYTHING to do with terrorism? Is it the slippery slope? Again, I'm new here and although I have my own opinions on this subject which I have not stated yet, I'd like to learn the opinions (not saying they aren't fact just because I call them opinions) on this specific subject. Thanks.
Why is it a problem for someone, anyone, you, me, your neighbor, or the "CIA", to bla, bla, bla, bla, torture, for any reason under the sun.
If you now know more than you knew when you asked that ignorant question, and if you continue to think in terms of that ignorant question, despite the evidence that proves that the question itself is ignorant (or willfully deceptive), then you are choosing ignorance, which is stupid, or you are willfully being deceptive, or some other, measurable, condition that isn't painfully obvious to me.
Here is an ignorant question (or willfully deceptive):
My question is why is it a problem for the CIA to have a secret prison where they can interigate and, if need be, torture to extract information that can save many lives?
I give you the benefit of doubt, and I assume that you are not willfully deceptive.
The question ignores crucial facts, as if the crucial, vital, facts don't exist.
If information is needed so as to save many lives, as the ignorant question proposes, then the obvious vital fact, is to answer the following question:
What is the most effective way in which to get information from someone?
Your question:
My question is why is it a problem for the CIA to have a secret prison where they can interigate and, if need be, torture to extract information that can save many lives?
Where does such an ignorant question come from? It comes from you. Have you been watching a lot of T.V.? That is not a cheap shot, even if you feel bad about the question, it is a question, it isn't meant to be insulting. The question is an example of vital information that I wish to get from you, so as to save many lives. I want to know why honest productive people become accessories to torture and mass murder, so I'm asking a vital question, and the answer must be true, or the answer will be false, and if the answer is false, and I "go with it", as if the answer was true, then what happens?
Example:
You want information from someone, so as to save many lives. You feel the need to torture, so as to extract that information, just like the movies, or the television shows, and therefore you do extract this vital information from this terrorist scum, this sub-human beast, this 2 year old, or 5 year old, this woman, or whatever, and now you think you have all you need to accomplish your worthy goal of saving many lives, but, as this example intends to illustrate, your information isn't true, your information is false, so, how does that work for you, as you try to save many lives with false information?
So I'm asking.
How do you come up with such a question? Do you watch a lot of television, and is that how you come up with your question?
This question:
My question is why is it a problem for the CIA to have a secret prison where they can interigate and, if need be, torture to extract information that can save many lives?
You asked that question. Not me. You asked that question on a public forum. What do you expect to get out of asking that question? You want to feel good, maybe?
I don't know. I'm asking.
You go on:
I'm not saying it's okay or that I agree with it, I'm just asking. Is it because the majority of people here do not believe that the people in these prisons have ANYTHING to do with terrorism?
You are not saying that it isn't okay or that you don't agree with saving lives by torturing people to extract information, you now want to finger other people with the capital crime of allowing the guilty to go free?
I'm asking.
The majority of people in here may not believe that the people being tortured have NOTHING to do with guilt, of any kind whatsoever. What does the majority rule, in here? What is meant by the term "Due Process"?
What is meant within the words "Presumed innocent until proven guilty"?
Is your question ignorant, or stupid? You tell me.
This question:
I'm not saying it's okay or that I agree with it, I'm just asking. Is it because the majority of people here do not believe that the people in these prisons have ANYTHING to do with terrorism?
A cheap shot, I'm reaching here, according to you, is what - exactly? Someone calling a spade a spade, is a cheap shot to you? A cheap shot to me is someone who fabricates a lie and then uses the lie to injure someone else, someone who is innocent of any wrongdoing, so that the cheapness of the event is measured as a gain by the person perpetrating the cheap shot at the expense of the targeted victim of the cheap shot.
Did I construct a false version of anyone, in anything I have written so far, and if so, quote those words, and if I am guilty of this "cheap shot" then I can know of my guilt too. As far as I know, in a state of ignorance for me, I'm telling you how it is, and I am not guilty of any cheap shots, whatsoever. If you want kid gloves used to handle your questions, then you may want to announce that fact before you go public with your questions.
You go on:
I'm not saying it's okay or that I agree with it, I'm just asking. Is it because the majority of people here do not believe that the people in these prisons have ANYTHING to do with terrorism? Is it the slippery slope? Again, I'm new here and although I have my own opinions on this subject which I have not stated yet, I'd like to learn the opinions (not saying they aren't fact just because I call them opinions) on this specific subject.
I can tell you a story, and you can skim past what I have to offer to you, or you can speed read past, trying to get something for nothing, or you can peruse the words I type, so as to extract the meaning intended, so as to answer your questions asked.
The slippery slope phenomenon was first introduced to me 30 odd years ago, and I've been working night and day, day and night, since then, on this very problem. A person who does expend their time and energy, and their space, in this work, is a person that can be spotted, recognized, known, measured, and understood, like Alex Jones, or Noam Chomsky, or Alexandr I. Solzhenitsyn, the list is not as long as it could be, there are many people, the majority, who have better things to do with their time.
Things are learned on this path of information gathering, and information deciphering, and you may understand that on this path of information gathering, and information deciphering, concerning that slippery slope, the investigator can recognize, and know, and realize, what things can be done to go up the slope, and what other things can be done to go down the slope.
When torture is employed, for whatever stated (claimed) reason, the willful act, the premeditate act, constitutes a clue, a good clue, as to which way that person is going on that slope.
It may be a good idea to pay closer attention to the claimed reasons being claimed by the willful employer of torture, just in case the torturer is also a liar.
You can do what you will with what you have now, and I can too. If this exchange between you and I appears to you as moving closer to torture, more uncomfortable, this is distasteful, then, that is your viewpoint, but to me, this type of exchange is the stuff that is missing, the stuff that moves the torturers back under their rocks, back down to their self-made hell holes.